God's Sovereignty Part 2
Well here is the second part (not really half) of my paper. One of the requirements of the paper was to comment on how we felt about the Bethlehme Affirmation of Faith's view on God's Sovereignty so that is why that is in there. Anyway hope you enjoy again I would love to hear any responses.
Part Two
The Bethlehem Baptist Elder Affirmation of Faith is a great summary of the concepts of God’s providence. I agree with the statement entirely for all of the reasons above and below. In fact when asked to reword portions of it into my own words I have a hard time because I don’t want to change anything and I always end up leaving stuff out. I did not always feel this way; I struggled with the ideas of Calvinism or God’s providence for about a year before the Lord opened my eyes to the idea. I won’t go into a ton of detail but for me it came down to what is more important to God, His sovereignty or humans libertarian free? In the end I feel that God values His sovereignty more. I did not save myself it was God’s freely given grace intervening on my behalf.
The final concept I would like to look at is the idea of Hope. It is my opinion that Arminianism does not offer any hope. Arminians would say that God does not control the future He just reacts to it, or that God does not know the future and again with great wisdom reacts to it. So if God has no control over the future or does not even know about the future how will He protect us against any of the evils this world and the devil throw at us. On top of that I think you can take this idea a step further and say if God cannot protect the innocent (I am not implying that I am innocent) can He save the unrighteous? I don’t know. John Piper talks about God’s sovereignty being a rock to stand on not beat ourselves against. I agree with all my heart. I pray that God holds on to me because if left to myself I am already lost.
Godspeed,
Caleb M. Saarela
(Your friendly neighborhood
Punk Rock Theologian)
"Jesus Christ, Light of the World
You never did forget me
and when i bled in darkness,
You held me still held me
when desparate nights i cursed You
You loved me, still loved me
Jesus Christ, You dry the tears
You break my heart of stone
Your words are life
cut marrow through
the darkness, to the bone
a heart of flesh You gave me
only You can save me
Savior, Daylight, I am coming home"
R. Roper
Again all images I'm just using... I'm such a user, abuser and a loser...
Labels: Serious Stuff, Spirituality
posted by Caleb M. Saarela at 9:50 PM
5 Comments:
another thing i have become thankful for. . post submitting to God's sovereignty. . .specifically in election. . .is that God will save those he has called. . .there is nothing i can do or say (i.e. unbelieving friends/family members). . .same with them. . .not that we are without responsibilities to respond to or share the gospel. . but what an amazing gift of peace to know everything will work out the way God has already planned and that this way is perfect. . .
Caleb, I'm proud to be Arminian. Just stop saddling me with the Open Theism bit, because I won't buy any of that. Not even if it is "cheaper for you!"
I've become well and truly convinced that libertarianism is the only way to make sense of the fact that we are the ones responsible for our actions. So that results in me falling somewhere und Arminianism. But remember, that doesn't mean that I don't believe God knows the future, or that I contribute something to my salvation other than my own sin.
"Illation" I feel like we have had this discussion before if only I knew who was behind the mask... Anyway I can pretty much go most of the way with you, but again then we will have part ways on the idea of free will.
I know the reason I've been able to come to believe that both God choose and our actions have consequences is because both of these idea's are expressed in the Bible, that has brought great comfort to me.
Have you ever read Jonathan Edwards "Freedom of the Will"? It is online and probably something you could read. I read it and then sit for an hour or two until my brain restarts (Ctrl+Alt+Delete, stupid Windows)
Anyway it is online at
www.jonathanedwards.com/text/FoW/FOWOutline.htm
That will take you to the outline and then Part IV is pretty related. But the whole thing is good. Thanks for you comments too Missy I hadn't gotten around to checking in awhile. Anyway, that's all...
Godspeed,
Caleb M. Saarela
Caleb, these points that you discuss regarding Calvinism are really good. While I do not consider myself either a Calvinist nor an Arminian I do see them both bringing good points to the table. I think that post modern Christians need to recognize more God's Sovreignty and control. I agree that if God does not know the future then we're screwed.
But I would like to raise an issue in just how God is supremely glorified. I would say that God's salvation of humans is certainly one of the utmost ways in which He is glorified, but was that why we we're truly created? Possibly, but then where does God's love fit it? Clearly God's undying passion for humanity is a theme from Genesis to Revelation. Did this love have anything to do with our created purpose? Also in creation, by what means is God glorified? I believe that part of our created purpose was to glorify God by being in community with Him, since God being in Triune commuinity with himself created us to be in community with him and also in his image. If we were created to glorify Him by being redeemed, why even the garden of Eden and the choice to ober or disobey? I think that his perfect creation fulfilling their created purpose being in perfect communion with him gives God more glory than the act of redemption. Because in that realm we are prefectly worshipping God constantly and eternally. So my question to Calvinism, how does God's love and His nature of Trinitarianism work into created purpose if we were really created to just be redeemed?
Now, on the other end, I have come to realize that God's plan is perfect and that I can do nothing to work towards my salvation but let God's grace be given to me through his grace.
So how do I reconcile the two? I think that sovreignty and libertarianism are two words that we are using to describe an aspect of God that we probably cannot fully understand. After all if every aspect of God could be reasonably understood it would be, by definintion of the word, impossible for God to be sovreign. Is it possible for God to both encompass these HUMAN definitions of these characters? I believe so since we are trying to come up with definitions based on human, therefore fallen, understanding and knowledge for aspects of God which are perfectly holy.
In the end I know that I need to trust in God's sovreignty much more. In my prayers instead of asking for as much as I do I am trying to emmulate Christ's "not my will but yours be done".
Does this make sense? I am in the middle of writing a paper about Calvin and his view of the knowledge of God, so I was in the mood to write. Sorry if it was too much.
Wow, you did not write too much in fact I am flattered you took the time to say anything. I feel a little overwhelmed that two of the smartest people I have ever met took time to disagree with me. And that you guys even read it. Wow…
So with that in mind I will let you know how I would respond to your thoughts. But again I would say anything I’m going to say is a sum up attempt at John Piper, Tom Steller, Jonathan Edwards, and Calvin. And again I would refer you to Jonathan Edwards Freedom of Will, as mentioned in a previous comment.
God being supremely glorified: “God's salvation of humans is certainly one of the utmost ways in which He is glorified, but was that why we we're truly created?“ My response quickly would be yes. Then your question was “but then where does God's love fit it?“ And “Did this love have anything to do with our created purpose? Also in creation, by what means is God glorified? “ I will answer the second one first. God is glorified in creation by the display of his glory. When God was finished he saw it and said it was good. After creating humans he said it was very good. But I would ask what is the panicle or the greatest moment in history or in creation? It is Jesus’ death and resurrection, Christ and God are supremely glorified in this event, nothing else even compares so I would say that is the point of creation and so it is the reason for creation.
So where does love fit in? Well this is a strange answer but here is… When God pursues His interest this is the most loving thing He can do. Can you think of moments in your life when you were the happiest; those are the moments when God is the most glorified in your life. You are exactly right that God wants community with us but it is not because he needs it, it is because we need it. In our lives God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him. And when we are most satisfied in Him, He receives the glory and we receive the joy. What brings us the most joy in life it is when God is glorified and we need nothing else but Him. So God out of love created us so that we could have community with Him I’m with you. But we need to be sure not to imply that God needed creation that is bad when we say that God is not glorified in fact He is minimized.
So then your question “If we were created to glorify Him by being redeemed, why even the garden of Eden and the choice to ober or disobey? I think that his perfect creation fulfilling their created purpose being in perfect communion with him gives God more glory than the act of redemption. Because in that realm we are prefectly worshipping God constantly and eternally. So my question to Calvinism, how does God's love and His nature of Trinitarianism work into created purpose if we were really created to just be redeemed?” My complaint with this is that if we are perfect then we are perfect we are earning our salvation and then we get the glory. Which is no good.
Your last comment I want to comment on is “I think that sovreignty and libertarianism are two words that we are using to describe an aspect of God that we probably cannot fully understand.” I think these two ideas come together in a way clearly in that God has chosen yet we are accountable for our actions. I believe that because the Bible says both of those are true. Maybe it is not a great philosophical argument but does it have to be it is Biblical. I believe we have free will, we choose, but I would not define it the same way as others. We have free will but it is within God’s providence. Anyway this is getting way to long but those are my thoughts.
Godspeed,
Caleb
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